Talk:Constitution class/archive
See: Talk:Constitution class/Archive for all conversations from 2004 through August 2005. Speculation If canon establishes Constitution as NCC-1700, Constellation cannot be the same class, not when she is 700 contract (registry) numbers earlier; similarly, neither is Republic. --squadfifteen, 16/11/05 :One possible excuse permits the above case, as I see it: NCC-1700 Constitution replaces a same-named ship, permitting confusion; nevertheless, a different class. --squadfifteen, 16/11/05 :I am inclined to limit the Constitution''s thus: *''Constitution NCC-1700 *''Enterprise'' NCC-1701 *''Hood'' NCC-1703 *''Exeter'' NCC-1706 *''Lexington'' NCC-1709 *''Kongo'' NCC-1710 *''Yorktown'' NCC-1717 plus one or two unnamed ships. I am disinclined to include NCC-1764 Defiant and NCC-1831 Intrepid because they are too high-numbered, given the size and complexity of Constitution (and what I've read of Gene's intent there only be 12 of her class at a time), unless we accept they are replacing losses (in which case, why not reuse existing names? or do they?). :I further exclude NCC-956 Eagle and NCC-1071 Constellation as too low-numbered; they belong to a different class, perhaps joined by NCC-1371 Republic (which I would construe as lead ship of a later group, given Constitution; on that basis, Eagle might be, too). :Furthermore, I propose a third group: Farragut NCC-1647 Potemkin NCC-1657 Excalibur NCC-1664 Endeavour NCC-1695 These are likely replacing losses in the Republic class. :I suggest the relationship between these ships is comparable to Gato: changes in weapons spec, propulsion, mainframe, hull framing, and so forth, but superficially identical except in detail. (Perhaps examination of canon photographs would reveal?) --squadfifteen, 16/11/05 As I recall, the so-called "Enterprise-A" was a new design, not a Constitution. --trekphiler, 16/11/05 It's intriguing to me "STTOS" with Constitution comes closest to an actual naming system: historical ships. --squadfifteen, 16/11/05 :::Very interesting speculation, but there's a lot of evidence from the show itself which disagrees with what you've put here. :::The USS Enterprise-A was Constitution class -- it says it on the dedication plaque seen in and -- similarly, the USS Defiant (NCC-1764) is also, agin established as Constitution-class by its plaque. The name "Constitution class" refers to both the TOS modification and the later refit design used in the Star Trek Movies -- the "class name" encompasses both modifications, showing another way that Starfleet registers and names ships completely differently from the US Navy, therefore, the US Navy cannot be used as a logical model to describe how Starfleet would work. :::Also, Starfleet numbers tend to run non-sequentially. even excepting the odd case of NCC-1017; the USS Entente has an NCC-2100 number even though NCC-2000 Excelsior wouldnt be out for another 15 years, obviously we cant expect every Constitution to have a number higher than 1700. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 14:59, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC) :::Starfleet tends not to reuse a ship name for the same class -- there have only been a handful of cases of this, mostly in special situations (two Contitution-class Enterprises; two Defiant class Defiant''s, etc) all other ships named as successors have been different classes -- so replacements would likely have different names that the original run of the class. ::::If there's canon evidence for ''Yorktown and NCC-1764 Defiant, I bow to it; I don't recall it. That doesn't invalidate everything else. It's also pretty flimsy evidence to invalidate on. Moreover, there's substantial internal evidence in canon for similarity of Starfleet practise with USN, not least the ship command structure; I would argue for a similarity in the registry. ::::I'd be leery of relying on Excelsior to bolster my argument, given her apparently unhappy design; if Scotty could so easily disable her, it may have been awhile before she entered service. ::::And if the canon supports such an extensive run under the same class name, I'd say (as I have elsewhere) the writers don't know what they're talking about. ::::Also, is it canon names aren't reused? It seems contraindicated by reuse of Defiant (Enterprise being a special case...); that we haven't seen names reused does not establish it did not happen. --squadfifteen, 17/11/05 If we accept Enterprise launched 2245, how does a ship 700 registry #s earlier fall in the same class? I'll accept Constitution& Enterprise are a common class... Has a canon (or authoritative) list of launch dates ever appeared? --trekphiler, 21/11/05 * Well, 1764 is canon for Defiant, as of "In A Mirror Darkly", for one thing (referring to someone above looking for a citation.Capt. Christopher Donovan 04:53, 15 Jan 2006 (UTC) :So I see the discussion started on Talk:USS Yorktown continues here in part. We have no problem if one disregards the registries associated with the vessels! There is no canon evidence to believe the Starbase 11 chart listed a) all Constitution vessels b) the Constitution vessels which names we knew. Matt Jefferies wanted the starship's to start with 17 and his wishes should be respected. Also the Jein-Interpretation does NOT say that the vessels are Constitution class, but that 17xx vessels belong to class IX and 16xx ones to class VIII. This little information was dropped when the registries were imported to the Encyclopedia. The only ships WITH registries from TOS we know 1700 Constitution, 1701 Enterprise, 1017 Constellation, and 1371 Republic, +TMP 1715 Merrimack and +ENT 1764 Defiant. Then there are the 1709, 1631/1831, 1703, 1672, 1664, 1697, 1718, and 1685 of which we only know they were assigned to Starbase 11 -- Kobi - [[ :Kobi|( )]] 11:22, 15 Jan 2006 (UTC) ::I think it's really just a flub in numbering ships back during the production of TOS. It also could very well be that the numbers are not chronological, or perhaps there were ships with those numbers to be made, but then cancelled, but they used the numbers on the sister ships. I don't know, I know after researching here, and Star Trek.com, I feel that the names are atleast right, and several registry numbers were. Terran Officer April 25, 1:41 AM (EST) Please accept my apologies in advance if I muddy the waters unnecessarily. Is there any canon establishment that the U.S.S. Constitution has to be NCC-1700? Is that firmly established? If it isn't, maybe Constitution could've been NCC-1600, or even NCC-900. That doesn't mean there were a total of 700 Constitution-class vessel built prior to Enteprise. In fact, not all of those numbers had to be used on Constitution-class ships, if they were used at all. Let's assume, for sake of argument, that the longtime fandom assumption that the U.S.S. Valiant lost at Eminiar VII was one of the first Constitution-class starships built, in, say, 2215. (Lost 50 years prior to Ambassador Fox's mission.) Let's say it was NCC-901, built next after the original U.S.S. Constitution. Let's say it took over 50 years for the Warp 7 engine mentioned in "These Are the Voyages..." to be perfected for practical application in Federation starships, but that the first wave of the Constitution-class vessels were only capable of Warp 5-to-6 in "real world" performance. Now let's assume that succeeding sub-classes of the Constitution class are introduced once every ten or twenty years, each subclass improving on the technology of the previous subclass. By the time of "The Cage," Capt. Pike's Enterprise could finally max out at Warp 7 for a sustained period to reach Talos IV. My point is that the original Federation starships named Constitution, Valiant and Eagle were the first wave of ships with a perfected Warp 7 engine, but maybe like the NX-01 Enterprise before it, these new ships were still rough around the edges. (See the Roddenberry-approved sketch by Matt Jeffries in the main article to see what the first Constitution-class, Constitution-subclass might have looked like.) Captain Pike's starship Enterprise would have been a Constitution-class vessel, but of a much later (and presumably, much more refined) subclass. Likewise, Capt. Kirk would have presided over the Enterprise's refit in 2265 after the disastrous mission at the galaxy's edge, opting for a thorough refurbishment of the whole ship rather than just repairs. If we assume all this for sake of argument, the Constitution-class legacy could look like this: 2215: Constitution-subclass: NCC-9xx, NCC-10xx, included U.S.S. Eagle, U.S.S. Constellation and U.S.S. Valiant,; weapons: advanced phase canons, photonic torpedoes; cruise: Warp 4.5, redline: Warp 6 2225: 2nd subclass (unnamed): NCC-13xx, NCC-15xx, included U.S.S. Republic and the orignal U.S.S. Yamato, weapons: unchanged; cruise: Warp 4.8, redline: Warp 6.5 2240: 3rd subclass (unnamed): NCC-16xx, NCC-17xx, included U.S.S. Potemkin and U.S.S. Enterprise, weapons: high-energy lasers, photonic torpedoes (changed to phasers and photon torpedoes by mid-2250's); cruise: Warp 5, redline: Warp 7 2260: 4th subclass (unnamed): NCC-175x+, NCC-18xx, included U.S.S. Defiant and U.S.S. Endeavour; weapons: phaser banks, photon torpedoes; cruise: Warp 6, redline: Warp 8. 2270: Enterprise-subclass: NCC numbers unknown, this is the refit Enterprise; weapons: warp-powered phasers, photon torpedoes; cruise: Warp 7, redline: Warp 9 (source for these warp statistics: The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, by Gene Roddenberry and Susan Sackett) 2295: 6th subclass: NCC numbers unknown, this is the mod seen in TNG's "Booby Trap" My basic logic behind all of this is: If the Klingons can fly ships of the same basic design for 200 years, why can't Starfleet? Ol' Horta Face 02:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC) Specification Is there a canon reason the number of TT was changed from up to 6 to only 2 in the FRAM refit? --squadfifteen, 17/11/05 :I have no idea what FRAM means. Are you talking about ships from Star Trek here? -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk Phasers at Warp I noticed on the tactical systems section that the article was going on the idea that phasers were not used at warp...There's plenty of good canon evidence that they ARE used at warp, some of the latter series' confusing statements notwithstanding...I didn't want to just come out and make a BIG change like that without soliciting comment first...Capt. Christopher Donovan 04:56, 15 Jan 2006 (UTC) :Phasers can't be used at warp on the refit Enterprise because the phasers are tied into the warp drive, the ship had previously had the ability as indicated by Kirk's attempt to fire the phasers at warp until corrected by Decker. I am correcting the article to reflect this. Transporter Room "Staging Area" Is there anyone who can point me at a specific piece of information to suggest the "suiting up" area shown in TMP is actually adjacent to aTransporter Room? The sequence in the film I thought made it pretty clear that it was part of the Air Lock areaCapt. Christopher Donovan 05:30, 16 Jan 2006 (UTC) :Hmm... I don't know if there's any canon information in that regard, but this fact is mentioned in the non-canon Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, which is where I based the information of the "staging area" upon. So guess it's not really canon, though the authour may have gotten that information from behind-the-scenes sources? Ottens 16:14, 16 Jan 2006 (UTC) :I remember the reference, but IIRC there's nothing in "Mr Scott's..." to indicate that the "airlock prep" room seen in the film is the "staging area" Johnson mentions...Capt. Christopher Donovan 08:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC) Pre-refit saucer vs. nacelle separation FWIW, like a lot of folks, I've thought for years that The Apple contained a reference to saucer separation, but after listening closely, it really doesn't. Kirk tells Scotty "discard the warp nacelles if you have to, and crack-out of there with the main section". (This line is not transcribed in at least one popular online reference) There's a similar order to discard nacelles in The Savage Curtain. Both emphasize nacelle separation and say nothing specific about saucer separation. The design of the ship certainly suggests it's an option, and there might have been something planned for ST: TMP, but... does this mean a reference to primary/secondary hull separation in the pre-refit configuration is something less than canon? --Aurelius Kirk 19:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC) *Hmm, if it has been mentioned as a background note by a member of the Trek staff, it may have some validity. I have even heard references that many starships have the ability to separate their saucers (which I don't see why not), but cannot reintegrate them without starbase/drydock assistance. - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 03:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC) I assume that the Constitution class has the ability to eject both nacelle and saucer sections in the original configuration only. The refit of this class took away the option of nacelle ejection, due to the new warp core arrangement and the increased power output of the new design. If you look at NX-01 U.S.S. Enterprise, there is no way of ejecting the saucer. The design places the warp core and nacelles away from the ship. Just like dragster design(of the mid 20th century) changed position the engine behind the driver for safety. A starship at speed does not have to fly through it's own debris field. The greatest danger to the early starships came from catastrophic failure of the most energetic parts. One can assume as forcefield technology advanced, main engineering was able to move inside the hull of the secondary section. The Constittution Class had the ability to either eject the nacelles or the engineering section depending on the nature of the problem. The refit made this extra option(nacelle ejection) obsolete due to the new blast radius of the new engine design's power output. This new option evolved over the years to the point of what can be seen in the day to day practices abroad the Galaxy Class Starships. In the early days breaking apart your ship was an option of last resort. The vessel was either lost and what was left was used for spare parts or abandoned due to extreme structural damage. If you were not under attack and you broke apart your ship, Starfleet took a dim view of it, especialy when your vessel required the use of spacedock to reassemble it. Saucer separation still carries with it an unsettling effect on the crew. A feeling against there pride "We have not done our jobs!" This, of course, is untrue giving the extremely dangerous job of space exploration. Confusion within the article There is some confusion within the article what ships are Constitution and which are not; USS Kongo for example is listed as one of the original 12 ships in the beginning, but as uncertain in the end listing; also as I've read here USS Yorktowns status is disputed as well etc. But I don't just want to edit a featured article easily, so perhaps anyone could present here what is the "final" list of certain and probable Consitutions? Kennelly 23:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC) The Constitution refit/ Enterprise class. I'm wanting opinions about spliting the Constitution class page into two, one for the original class and one for the refit which was there after known as the Enterprise class, although I haven't seen any reference to that except the one I added. Being that the Enterprise was so heavily rebuilt, and to a successful design, it was considered the prototype of a new class of ships, named after the original the Enterprise. I'm surprised no one has included this here. The Enterprise-A was built as an Enterprise class making each incarnation of the Enterprise a different (originally at least) class, Constitution, Enterprise, Exselsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, and Sovreign. Thanks.--Dac18643 05:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC) * Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country settled the matter of class label -- the refit [[USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)|USS Enterprise]] is labeled ''Constitution''-class in Scotty's blueprints. But I am in favor of splitting the article into Constitution class and Constitution class (refit) for the sake of clarity and readability. --Aurelius Kirk 05:44, 10 March 2006 (UTC) **Sorry I missed that. And my information probably predates that movie. I guess I should take my note out of the article. I get confused about whats "official" and what isn't. And my opinion is that having the newly built ships of that type would be a new class. The new ones aren't "refits" but new construction.--Dac18643 05:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC) ::Not to re-start an old discussion, but there actually is a modern example to compare with. Many classes of naval ships undergo refits, sometimes extensive. When a new ship is bult with all of these upgrades in place, thus never refitted itself, it is still considered a member of the original class. It is usually just called a member of a new "flight" of ships. An example is the Los Angeles class submarine, of which there have been 3 "flights", but they are all still Los Angeles class. New build constitutions that match the refit configuration could therefore be considered "flight 2" of the same class, and not a new one. --OuroborosCobra 07:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC) :Interestingly enough, there is evidence apparently going back to 1980 that if the producers had EVER considered "Enterprise class" for the refit, they had abandoned the idea early on. Check THIS out, from the Trek Newspaper strip, set in the TMP era. Not canon, but officially approved at the time: 12 vs 13 ships Most people in half memory of a line from "Tomorrow is Yesterday" believe there were only 12 ships as of that episode. The truth is Kirk's line says there are 13 Constitution Class ships. The line excludes the Enterprise in the 12 "12 like it in the fleet". Because of this keeping this article accurate might be hard, especially with new members coming in. So I am going to add a note to the article, even though it might appear an unnecessary note. --TOSrules 07:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC) "There are twelve like it in the fleet", Capt. Kirk does indeed say in "Tomorrow Is Yesterday". He also says their authority comes from the United Earth Space Probe Agency. With the exception of the U.S.S. Intrepid, most of the original list of supposedly Constitution-class vessels appear to be manned by human crews (or mostly human crews) from Earth, therefore supposedly sponsored by U.E.S.P.A. Presumably, all Constitution-class vehicles are Starfleet vessels (it is unknown if the Vulcans continue to maintain their own separate fleet of front-line cruisers in the 23rd century) but therein lies the quandary: Were all (or nearly all) Constitution-class starships of the 2360's (and before, and after?) manned and sponsored by Terrans? Note that, canonically speaking, Kirk does not precisely say "there are only twelve Constitution class starships in the Federation fleet". Rather, it is reasonable to conclude Kirk is talking about twelve Federation starships (presumably Constitution-class) from Earth. If every major player/council member-world in the Federation sponsored a similar number of vessels (12 from Vulcan, including Intrepid; 12 from Andor, 12 from Tellar, etc.) and other worlds and colonies sponsored or joint-sponsored at least one ship, the Starfleet of "classic" Trek would easily encompass at least a couple hundred starships, including several dozen Constitution-class vessels. This would also mean the loss of the starships Intrepid, Defiant and the loss of the crews of the Exeter and Excalibur would not be a crippling blow to Starfleet at that time. Otherwise, the later half of the 2260's was devastating to the Federation, causing the pool of their best top-line starships to be gutted. Ol' Horta Face 01:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC) "Modified Constitution-refit" I added the metion of the "modified Constititution-refit" seen in "Booby Trap" (TNG). What do you think? 16:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC) (aka Ensign_Q) more than 2 photon tubes? In Wrath of Khan, we see a shot that seems to establish that there are FOUR torpedo bays on the enterprise. in most shots, the bays are labelled 1 and 2, but in one shot, just after the enterprise leaves orbit and heads to the nebula, we see a shot with a Torpedo bay 3 and 4. for more details see here: http://www.trekplace.com/article01.html perhaps the Refit Constitution has a pair of torpedo tubes that fire rearwards, out a common port in the back of the neck? (in that black 'cut-out' perhaps?) -Mithril 21:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC) :This is interesting, but before it is included in the article, I think we need someone to confirm these shots on their own DVDs (sorry, I am poor and don't have any). I feel this needs to be checked because some of the shots on the external link are obviously doctored (expecially that last one). Once it is confirmed, we should change the article to reflect 4 torpedo tubes for the refit. --OuroborosCobra 22:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC) :It is made perfectly clear in the Trekplace article that the existene of these Torpedobays 3 and 4 is practically impossible. It should be noted in the article, though, preferably as a mistake in the Background section. Ottens 06:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC) ::it's made clear that the articles author beleives the existance of bay's 3 and 4 is impossible. and it's true that it makes little sense if they fire foreward. thus why i suggested rear fireing tubes. bays 3 and 4 would then be behind 1 and 2, facing the opposete way. -Mithril 15:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Well, I have to say that that would not jibe with what we have seen of the refit constitution. Here is a rear shot: It does not look like the module with the forward tubes has rear firing ones. --OuroborosCobra 18:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC) ::It could be that the "3" and "4" bays are part of an unbuilt design -- they have labeled access ports should they ever be grafted on, but do not exist as such. Seems like the kind of signs that would end up being in place after a military appropriations discussion. -- Captain M.K.B. 18:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC) ::::that small black section on the neck looks like a torpedo port. the 3rd and 4th tubes might be in a > arrangement, exiting out a single port. -Mithril 21:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC) ::We've never seen an arrangment likie that on any other ship. Without more evidence, I'd have to say they aren't there. --OuroborosCobra 22:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC) :::Also, the black thing is located above the module the other launch tubes are in. --OuroborosCobra 22:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC) But did anyone consider there may only be one aft launcher? Like the guy above, I'm broke, and can't get my hands on the DVDs, but it might make sense there was only room fore one aft launcher, which makes sense to me. Just throwing it out there.--CaptainCaca 17:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC) :The little black thing is smaller than the both of the other two tubes. It just isn't big enough. Look at the picture. --OuroborosCobra talk 17:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC) :I posted the torpedo bay pic below it. It looks to me, like it is big enough to house a single bay to me. Otherwise, why is it there?"--CaptainCaca 17:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC) :My apologies, it didn't come out. I'm new at pictures. But take another look at the refit torpedo launcher anyways. --CaptainCaca 18:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC) mass.. the ship is listed as massing 1 million metric tons. thats something of a major increase in density over the NX class with its 80,000, given that the Constitution is only slightly larger. it also means the Consituition is 1/4th the mass of the Galaxy class, while being nearly 10x smaller in volume. i'm just having a hard time seeing such a dense ship. (IIRC, the old TOS tech manual, albeit non-canon, had 190,000 tons. as did the starship spotter.) where did the 1 million ton figure come from? -Mithril 02:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC) :Not sure where it came from. We need to check on that. Unfortunetly, there is a good chance that it is from an episode. The writers sometimes don't stop and think when they are writing these masses. Take a look at Borg scoutship, for example. The thing looks to be about the size of a runabout, but in the episode they say it has a mass of about 2.5 million metric tons. --OuroborosCobra talk 02:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC) :::i agree as to the odd masses we sometimes get. i would really like to find out where the million tons came from though. the borg scout was intended to be a factual statement (perhaps borg tech is just really high mass and density), but some lines might be hyperbole, inflated stats to make what they're saying sound more impressive. it would be nice to see which one this stat came from. (i also double checked my starship spotter. original model Constitution listed as 190,000 tons, and the refit at 210,000 tons. they left off half the armaments of the original connie, but it was done before In a Mirror, Darkly, so all you had to go on were the foreward phasers and torp tube seen in TOS.) -Mithril 18:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC) ::::The Borg Scout ship stat comes from dialogue in the episode "I, Borg": :::::DATA: "The vessel is traveling at warp seven-point-six. Mass: two-point-five million metric tons, configuration: ...cubical." :::::RIKER: "The Borg..." :::::DATA: "Its dimensions indicate that it is a scout ship similar to the one that crashed." ::::Something that small weighing that much would have probably sunk into the ground at the crash site, yet shown on screen, it did not. --OuroborosCobra talk 18:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC) :::ah, i guess i wasn't clear on my statement. i wanted to know the line about the enterprise mass came from, and if it was hyperbole or factual. i've seen I, Borg several times, though i never noticed that line. -Mithril 19:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC) :The mass of the Enterprise was stated to be "almost a million gross tons" in "Mudd's Women". A gross ton is 2240lbs, or 1016kg. More on the matter can be found on my Volumetrics page at ST-v-SW.Net DSG2k 19:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC) ::a little wikipedia search finds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_ton , which indicates that 'gross tonnage' for ships is a measure of Displacement, not mass. so the Constitution class volume would take up the same volume as 1 million tons of water. from the Tonnage article on wikipedia- Gross Tonnage refers to the volume of all ship's enclosed spaces (from keel to funnel) measured to the outside of the hull framing.-Mithril 20:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC) :::I've discussed the issue of gross tonnage to death elsewhere, hence the text on my site I linked to, which includes reference to the use for gross ton of 100 cubic feet or so. However, that use is invalid in this context, because the ship would have to be huge for that to be the case. For kicks, let's do the math ... the ship's volume which I estimate in the text to be 211,248 cubic meters indicates a gross tonnage of 74,600. Let's say you're right, and that Scotty indicated the ship's gross tonnage to be 900,000 or so. That's 900,000,000 cubic feet of volume, or 25,485,161.9 cubic meters. Using the volume coefficient based on 289 meters and 211,248 cubic meters for the normal ship, your re-imagined Constitution's length would be 1,428 meters . . . or almost 4,700 feet. That's over twice as long as the Sovereign Class. :::So our choices are to assume an unnecessary context for Scotty's statement, one which runs contrary to everything else we know of the Constitution Class starship, or we accept his statement for what it logically refers to. Your call. - DSG2k 22:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC) ::with no better alternative, we'll leave it as is. i still beleive that 1 million tons is probably not accurate either however. the line could still be hyperbole, or the result of the poorly defined size of the ship in TOS. -Mithril 00:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC) Screen vs. Turbolift On the Centerline The statement that "mounted into the room's forward bulkhead, on the ship's centerline, was the main viewscreen," is simply wrong. The visual evidence first seen in "The Cage" clearly indicates that the command module is offset. The turbolift shaft can be seen outside the ship and, once inside, we see a crewman walk out of the lift.- GNDN 17:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC) :The issue of whether or not the bridge is offset has been the subject of much debate. On the one had there are those who say it is, while others say it isn't. At TrekBBS, for example, proponents of both have waged war with massive threads featuring various scalings, diagrams, and argumentation. "The Cage" supports neither view explicitly, since the scene would not only indicate a turbolift not lined up with the so-called turboshaft, but further the bridge would not be level with the saucer. :Personally I favor the notion that the bridge is centered and not cattywompus, but given the excessive struggles over the matter perhaps an NPOV viewpoint would be preferred. -- DSG2k 00:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC) ::Originally, the turbolift was to line up center right behind the captain's chair, and the bridge module was set front to back. The model of the Enterprise was lined up accordingly. However, during the initial filming of "The Cage", the directors noted that Chris Pike was blocking the view of the lift. Seeing this as a problem, the turbolift was swapped with another part of the modular bridge, scooting it over. The model was not changed. This is what led to the 'offset' problem. ::The first 'official' explanation for this came in the Constitution Class Deck Plans, from Franz Joseph, and authorized by Gene Roddenberry. In those plans, the offset is indicated to exlpain the discrepancy between the bridge set and the filming model. This is repeated in the Tech Manual a couple of years later. ::So, officially, and since there's been nothing official to refute this, the only 'canon' answer possible is that the bridge is, in fact, rotated for some reason. (Vanguard) :::In the original bridge set, only a few of the sections were removeable, or "wild". The turbolift doors were not one of those wild sections, so the alleged shuffling of stations described above is impossible. :::As for which way the bridge faced, as far as Matt Jefferies and everyone else on the set was concerned, it faced forward. How it all lined up with the model wasn't a concern at the time, because 1) it's just a tv show, and 2) who the hell was gonna care in forty years? (Captain Robert April) The command module cannot be placed off center due to the danger this presents to the vessel. It is physically and physcologically unsound to do so. The command offficers would feel uncomfortable during flight, which leads to distraction, which leads to mistakes, which leads to a really big and bright fireball. The command module is not mounted off center. The turbolift door is. The turbolift system has the ability to store the systems cars in a waiting area for high demand areas to keep up with the traffic load. The cars for the bridge are stored in the outer hull area of the bridge module. They move into postion off the centerline to access the bridge. Then they enter the main tube on the centerline to lower the cars into the system. Once this happens another car from right or left storage goes off center to serve the bridge. The turboshaft outer hull can be seen behind the bridge outer hull on the Constitution class. Two tubes service the bridge module on the refit. It has a car storage feature as well. The new design is for system redundancy in case of failure due to battle damage, system failure or unforeseen circumstances encountered during the ships mission. It is a mistake to think of the turbolift as an terrestrial elevator. Terrestrial elevators do not move side to side as well as up and down. The responce time seen on the bridge is beyond that of an elevator. What you see on the bridge is a docked turbolift car. You have to physically hold a handle to let the car know you are there and conscience. If you let go it stops, the system computer evaulates your status and then takes action. The computer also controls traffic in the systems. The bridge module is organized from the inside out. First is the command module and flight deck, then a circular service corridor to access the bridge systems, next is the innerhull wall, then the turbolift/ engineering ring areas of the outer hull and finally the hard vacuum of space. Battle cruiser? only if you are a klingon The article was just changed from "Heavy cruiser" to "Battlecruiser", citing Star Trek III. The problem is that it was called a "battle cruiser" (two words, in the script) by the Klingons, and MA is written as Federation database. I am looking for a reference to Heavy cruiser, and may be reverting this. --OuroborosCobra talk 21:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC) :I believe Gene Roddenberry or Matt Jefferies or someone in the production staff designated it as a Heavy Cruiser. What the Klingons call it is irrelevant, since they are most likely expressing an opinion or a misconception in calling it a battlecruiser. And I can assure you Starfleet wouldn't have designated a ship built for exploration as a "battlecruiser". --From Andoria with Love 01:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC) :Indeed, the Enterprise was labeled as a heavy cruiser on the bridge layouts in Star Trek III, according to the background at Heavy cruiser. Reverting. --From Andoria with Love 01:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC) ::Although I added the Paramount Pictures copyright petty-fogging to the recently added image, I am not at all convinced that the ship depicted here is a refit, much less a [[USS Constitution|USS Constitution]] refit. And since we are on the record, this ''Enterprise'' could well be another refit re-commissioned, or an entirely new vessel. A well-lighted image of the [[USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)| refit Enterpise]] from Star Trek: The Motion Picture would be most welcome. --GNDN 04:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC) :::it says it is Constitution class, not the USS Constitution... the term "refit" refers to the fact that it is of the same configuration as the refit Constitution-class Enterprise vessel, not that it has been refit itself. :::I'd love to speculate and "make-up" imaginative histories of whether these ships were refit in any specific way, based on their registries and age, but if we didnt see or hear about it onscreen, its really not Memory Alpha's business to say. -- Captain M.K.B. 04:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC) :::: To bring this discussion to an end: This is what the Enterprise's bridge display says: Heavy Cruiser -- Kobi 13:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC) Actually, there is even a picture of this on MA. --OuroborosCobra talk 13:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC) :::::Joseph Franz works aren't considered canon. ::::: "For many years, these reference works formed the backbone for treatments of the Star Trek setting. Their general assumptions about Starfleet and the galaxy as a whole were the basis of the Star Fleet Universe and FASA's version of Star Trek, as well as most novels about Star Trek. This book was one of the materials that was stripped of its canonical status at around the same time as FASA's version of Star Trek and its ideas about Star Trek were ignored from that point on." While it was taken from a Franz work, it was seen on screen, and by Memory Alpha:Canon policy, it is considered canon. If you don't like the policy, then get it changed at the talk page for the policy. This is not the way to do it. Please follow the rules here, or propose a rule change in the proper place. --OuroborosCobra talk 14:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC) ::::: I don't need a lecture from you. I was watching Star Trek before you were born. You call it what you want. Although that image was captured on screen, it was taken from Joseph Franz works, a non-canon reference. I finished here, but I am sure you spend 99.9% of your time on Star Trek. Nice knowing you, and your disregard for something on screen being canon. --OuroborosCobra talk 17:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC) :Yet another one bites the dust. Geez, you'd think these people would know better... personally, I'm getting sick of it. Yet another user can't handle our policies so they have a temper-tantrum, leave and bang the door on the way out. Oh, so you've been watching Star Trek since before we were born? That's great -- well, keeping with the cocky mood, allow me to retort by saying that we've been working on Memory Alpha a lot longer than you. The policies and Gene Roddenberry himself stated that anything on-screen is canon. Apparently, you can't handle that, which is kind of pathetic, really. So, farewell to thee, and such. --From Andoria with Love 17:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC) ::::::I apologize in advance if this discussion has become too uncomfortable for others to continue. During "A Taste of Armageddon", Anan 7 orders Eminiar VII's planetary defense system to open fire on the Starship Enterprise, repeatedly referring to it as a "star cruiser". (Whether this was two separate words or a compund word, I cannot determine; I have no script to site, just what the viewer sees and hears.) Whether Anan 7's "star cruiser" reference was arbitrary, or maybe an historic throwback to the old U.S.S. Valiant of 50 years before, or maybe derived from Eminian monitoring of Federation subspace chatter about the Enterprise, we have no idea. I would point out that while "battle cruiser" is a more militaristic reference, there really is not that much difference between the various terms "battle cruiser", "heavy cruiser", and "star cruiser". I would also point out that Gene Roddenberry's novelization of "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" also features a brief passage in which he waffles (my opinion) between referring to the newly refit Enterprise as a "heavy cruiser" and a "battleship". ::::::This also prompted me to consider some of his other musings and philosophies through the years. It has been written that Roddenberry adamantly opposed revisiting "The Enterprise Incident" in ST:TNG, and when a fan wrote into the official fan club magazine after the broadcast of "The Defector" in Jan., 1990, asking why the Romulans still had the cloak as an "advantage" after Kirk stole one from the Empire at least three-quarters of a century before, Roddenberry responded "our people are explorers... they don't sneak around". This seemed silly, given the use of a cloak-like holographic blind in "Who Watches the Watchers" just a couple months earlier. Later, after Roddenberry's death, Mr. Berman apparently had no problem realizing a new Star Trek series as a full-fledged war drama, including a Federation warship (the Defiant), complete with super-phasers, uber-torpedoes and a cloaking device. Then there was the semi-apocryphal future-tense Enterprise-D of "All Good Things...", glistening with more weapons and a third nacelle. (Note the new and improved Enterprise-E and other newer ships have only two) All this shows the schism in Star Trek's principles. Is the Enterprise, of any era, a warship, a battleship, or just a plain old starship? It really depends on how you feel about the direction Star Trek has taken since Mr. Roddenberry passed away. I'd say that canon backs me up on the notion that, third nacelle or no, the Enterprise of any era (except possibly the NCC-1701-E) represents the best and biggest in terms of ability, versatility, and outright prowess. While the relatively (to her era) smaller Enterprise-E may be the exception, just about any other Enterprise in her own respective era could be called a "Star cruiser", a "battle cruiser", a "heavy cruiser" or perhaps most aptly, a *dreadnought*. In fact, if the Federation Starfleet of the mid-23rd century wanted to apply a label to their top-line starships which could have multiple meanings, military and otherwise, it could be "cruiser" as easily as it could be dreadnought. That would certainly cast a new light on the nature of Starfleet naval force, wouldn't it? Maybe even the late Mr. Roddenberry might approve. His novelization of "TMP" seems to suggest as much... Ol' Horta Face 05:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC) :::::::You know I don't belive that Saddam Hussein named the missle of choice for his country (during the first Gulf War) the SCUD. I am certain that it was a name assigned by NATO. My point is that us and our enemies name each others equipment. Who knows there might not be a word for Heavy Cruiser in Klingonese. By the way I have been watching Star Trek since I was 6 years old. That was 1966. Protected Temporarily protected until above issue is resolved. --From Andoria with Love 16:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC) First Heavy Cruiser What the fudge? Where the hell is this coming from? We don't know all the classes of Federation Starships, and have nothing (IIRC) between Daedalus class and this one. Why in gods name would we speculate on what happened in starship design over that entire century? --OuroborosCobra talk 16:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC) New Class of Constitution-class Why don't you list the Enterprise-A and the ships built after her as a new class, like Constitution-class Mark II. This is a common designation in the US Navy, example the Aegis cruisers with the new equipment are MK II flights. Someone has said that we can't use the US Navy as a basis for how Starfleet works, but this is exactly what Gene Roddenberry did. He served, and used naval names from through out history(Enterprise, Yorktown, Lexington,Exeter, etc). Also about the Enterprise-A being the Yorktown before being renamed, is in my opinion bogus. Again, Naval Tradition dictates that you never rename a ship after its finished construction. Its considered bad luck, this goes back hundreds of years. My understand of the comment by Roddenberry about this was that he originally was going to name the ship in Star Trek, Yorktown. Then he jokingly in the same interview, said that the Enterprise may have been the Yorktown mentioned earlier in the film, since he doubted Starfleet could have built a brand new ship so fast. Plus in ST 5, Scotty clear says "This new ship must have been put together by monkeys. Oh she's got a fine engine, but half the doors won't open." My argument would be that by ST 2,3,and 4 Starfleet would have been making the Constitution Refit design brand new from the keel up, making it a new class(Enterprise-class or Constitution II) with new equipment like that on the Excelsior-class. This may be why all of the original Con refits were being decommissioned by ST III. :First off, there is no canon evidence to do this. Second off, as far as I know, the Navy does not call it "Ticonderoga Mk. II" (Ticonderoga being the Aegis cruiser), they simply split them into different "flights". All of this has already been discussed on this very talk page at Talk:Constitution class#The Constitution refit/ Enterprise class.. Please see that discussion. --OuroborosCobra talk 19:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC) Main Bridge in 2254 The picture we have for the bridge in 2254 shows a small portion of the area. It is also a early test photograph as it shows the unfinished floor and not-so-refurbished command chair. I'd like to replace the picture with this one, once the protection lock is lifted of course. AC84 20:50, 10 September 2006 :I agree.Capt Christopher Donovan 03:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC) :Please add this picture, if only for the view of the "door mat" in front of the turbolift. --GNDN 11:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC) ::You know, there was nothing stopping you from using the new image. The article was protected, not the image files. I simply uploaded the image you guys wanted (Image:Originalbridge.jpg) over the image in the article (Image:Constitution class bridge 2250s.jpg). Just before anyone tries to tell me you needed to be an admin to do this, I'm not an admin, and I did it. --OuroborosCobra talk 13:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC) New Image of Primary Hull With the release of images of the new model of the Enterprise for the remastered TOS, we finally have a good image to replace that problematic one we were all scratching our heads about a few weeks ago. I went ahead and uploaded it, so that's THAT problem solved... :) Capt Christopher Donovan 07:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC) Type of Launcher For what reason is it necessary to specify that they are exactly 'photon torpedo launchers'? The connotation is that all the only thing they can launch are photon torpedoes, and nothing more. The term 'torpedo launcher' (especially when backed up by the appropriate article) better describes the capability of the system (although I admit that for me 'torpedo launcher' is still not generic enough.) Kv1at3485 06:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC) :Have we ever seen them launch anything but photons? --OuroborosCobra talk 06:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC) Spock and coffin. Unless all things with that particular type of casing are automatically deemed as 'torpedoes'. That would be an interesting method to determine nomenclature. Kv1at3485 06:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC) ::Because we wouldn't want people to think the ship can fire spatial torpedoes, photonic torpedoes, or quantum torpedoes. :P --From Andoria with Love 06:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC) :As far as I remember, Spock in a coffin was a hollowed out photon torpedo. --OuroborosCobra talk 06:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC) It used the same type of icasing/i, but I can't see how the casing by itself makes it a torpedo. As for not being able to fire other types of devices: if the device can fit into the tube (a matter of the dimensions of the casing, not what's in the casing) why not? We already know that such things have happened before, two differently shaped casings fired out of the same launcher (spatial and photonic torpedoes.on ENT, torpedoes and probes in TNG and probably DS9 and VOY...) Kv1at3485 06:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC) ::Since they were photon torpedo launchers, and since the article needs to specify what the ship fired from those launchers (only photon torpedoes, as far as we know), I'm not sure what the big issue is here. Maybe that's just 'cause it's late and I'm tired... --From Andoria with Love 06:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC) Warp factor, again... In the Archive, we stated that the Enterprise reached Warp 14 and that there would have been several warp factors mentioned that went far beyond that speed. What changed so that we noted Warp 9 by now? There is also a difference to all Constitution class articles through the different languages - even they are different to each other: * the Spanish one states Warp 8 for both versions * the Dutch one states Warp 8 for the original configuration and Warp 12 for the Refit * the German one "agrees" to MA/nl with Warp 8 for the original configuration but gives Warp 9 for the Refit. I guess here's definitely going something wrong, eh? 22:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC) : There's definitely a legitimate issue here of how to interpret the specs for the original-series Starship Enterprise. Much of the rationale that gave rise to Star Trek technical fiction such as Franz Joseph's 1975 "Technical Manual" was actually confirmed in canon; if you look at "Obsession", it does appear to confirm that a Constitution-class starship's "emergency speed" is Warp factor 8 (witness Scotty's warning "...we'll blow up any second!") and the "maximum safe cruising speed" as Warp 6. The hot pursuit in "Balance of Terror", "Arena" and "Operation: Annihilate!" seemed to confirm this, and "The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture" by Gene Roddenberry and Susan Sackett also seemed to back that up. : It is true that the Enterprise exceeded Warp 8 on other occasions. The speed went "off the dial" in "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" during their re-creation of a time warp, but it wasn't until Nomad came along in "The Changeling" that an outside force started messing with the Enterprise's engines to produce what were clearly extraordinary results (double-digit warp factors, which Scotty dismissed as "Impossible!"). It looks like whatever the Kelvans might've left behind after "By Any Other Name" (remember, Rojan said they would modify the engines to achieve inter-galactic velocities "far beyond the reach of your science") had a lasting effect on Federation technology. Kirk told Nomad that double-digit warp factors would cause a dangerous structural strain on the Enterprise when he asked the "spacehappy" robo-monster to discontinue. Apparently, whatever modifications the Kelvans made gave Scotty enough clues to allow the Enterprise to sprint away from the Romulans briefly at Warp 9 ("The Enterprise Incident") and keep the ship together long enough to travel 990.7 light-years at speeds between Warp 8.7 and Warp 14.1 before powering down ("That Which Survives"). : As for the notion of the refit "TMP" Enterprise listing specs of Warp 8 cruise and Warp 12 redline, I used to accept those myself. But studio politics that can be traced right back to Mr. Roddenberry himself caused a schism between what is "canon" and what is "licensed works" from Paramount. Please believe me, I beat my head against the wall trying to understand this one and finally gave up. My rationale for accepting the notion that the refit Enterprise cruises at Warp 7 (as seen in "TMP") and redlines at Warp 9 (supported by Roddenberry in both the "Making of" and the "TMP" novelization) is that Warp factors are geometric quanta and if it took 30 years for Archer's Starfleet to come up with a "Warp 5 engine", it doesn't seem credible that Constitution-class ships could leap from a top speed of Warp 8 to one of Warp 12 so easily, and in so little time. : So the best way to make sense of this warp speed issue is to say that while Constitution-class starships of the era of 2268 and beyond were capable of sprinting at speeds exceeding Warp 8 under their own power, and could even exceed Warp 14, such speeds could just as easily result in the ship's self-destruction from either superheated reactor or structural strain. This does not even begin to deal with the "time continuum" catapult issue ("Is There In Truth No Beauty?") that high warp speeds apparently risk as well. Ol' Horta Face 05:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC) ::First off, I hate to say this, but I think these really long comments have to stop soon. Remember that these talk pages are not just general forum threads, they have to apply directly to discussion on the contents of the article, particularly to changing it. I don't see that happening with most of these extremely long comments. See for details. ::Now, as for the sudden speed change, let me remind yo of another bit of history. It took us more than 40 years to get from flying at 30 miles per hour to flying at 500 miles per hour. 10 years later we were flying at 1,900+ miles per hour. Less than ten years after that, 4,500+ miles per hour. Then it took 40 years to go much faster. Point being, technology and advancements can come in spurts.--OuroborosCobra talk 05:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC) Well ... I just had doubts on which MA uses the "right" max. speed, because our article was about to become a featured article so is the MA/en's (it actually is by now btw). I didn't want any of those "almost canonical reference literature" because most of them are considered falsified by later series and movies. Federation technology sure does advance and ships are getting faster and faster but wasn't my point. Are there any issues for the regular maximum speed? Which MA version is right? 15:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC) : See my comments under "Speculation" near the top of this talk page. I don't know if it will help, but that's my take on it. Ol' Horta Face 20:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC) "modified constitution refit" I noticed that someone added a reference to a "modified Constitution refit" under the Constituition refit section of the article. Beside it is a picture of a model from Booby Trap. Is this really canon, considering the model may have just been a depiction of a ship that doesn't exist? 70.51.247.96 20:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC) :The model itself is canon, meaning that, whether the ship existed or not, the design is canon. -- Captain M.K.B. 20:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC) Ok, but the text states that the blacks hatches on the saucer were shuttle bays. I don't think those were ever called shuttle bays on screen, so maybe we should reword the reference? -- 64.230.39.153 21:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC) :agreed.--!Captain M.K.B. 17:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC) ::Ok done. 64.230.101.39 18:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC) Starship=Connie :The following was moved from User talk:Shran. First we have the "Starship Class" dedication plaque on Enterprise's bridge establishing class. Then we have Merrik in "Bread and Circuses" stating that Kirk commands not a "spaceship", but a STARship "a very special kind of vessel". That term is a specific reference to Enterprise and her sisters. Later on we have Scotty's "Constitution class" phaser diagrams on his display screen, as other's have noted PLUS the "Constitution class plans he studies in ST VI PLUS Picard's identification of the Enterprise as "Constitution class" in "Relics" PLUS we have Defiant's plaque in IAMD SHOWING "Constitution Class". Thus we have sufficient canon to establish that Starship=Connie in TOS reference. Now, we have quotable dialoge in "Court Martial" and "The Immunity Syndrome" esablishing Republic and Intrepid as "starships". Those are canon data points, buttressed by the Encyclopedia entries as supporting evidence, if you must include them (the canon data is sufficient). I'll refrain from doing any further reverting until we thrash this out.Capt Christopher Donovan 04:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC) :I have to disagree. All that is evidence that the Connie is considered a starship, not that all starships are Connies. --OuroborosCobra talk 04:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC) ::Yeah, that's not really sufficient canon... seems more like circumstantial evidence or personal observation. Nothing was directly stated. Don't get me wrong, I've heard of the theory before stating "Starship Class equals Constitution Class therefore all references to Starship are references to the Constitution Class", but nothing has been firmly established in canon. Now, if we had someone behind-the-scenes on record as stating that all references to a "Starship" were meant as a reference to the same type of class as the Enterprise, that would be something. As far as I know, though, it's only a theory. --From Andoria with Love 04:59, 27 May 2007 (UTC) I had a different response typed out at Shran's column, but lost it when I went to save so I'll take a different tack. You admit I have canon support for my contention, Shran. You say I have "not sufficient canon"...either it's canon or it isn't. Never, not once in TOS is the term starship used to describe ships other than Enterprise and her class-sisters. They use terms like "star cruisers", "freighters", "survey vessels", or the generic "spaceship". Every time the word "starship" is mentioned in TOS where we have a visual of said ship, it is a ship like Enterprise. Every time. So, if you accept that Enterprise-nil is a Connie, then so must all ships mentioned as "starships" in TOS are also Connies. Even as late as TMP, other ships identified by type are "scouts" or "dreadnoughts", while Ent-nil is still referred to as a "starship". The first canon use of "starship" on a non-Connie is the Reliant in TWOK. Put aside the last 3 decades worth of other series' use of the term as a generic and look at what the TOS writers meant at the time.Capt Christopher Donovan 05:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC) :What other Federation starship classes do we even see in TOS? I'm still not seeing lines that say "Starship is only the Connie" as opposed to "Connies are starships". Yes, no others were mentioned, but that doesn't mean they did not exist, and none of the lines seem to preclude others existing. --OuroborosCobra talk 05:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC) ::"You admit I have canon support for my contention, Shran." I did? Where? I said it wasn't "sufficient canon" (a term you used). And just because we've seen visual evidence of Constitution-class starships that are referred to as starships doesn't mean there were not non-Connie classes out there that were also called starships... if that makes sense. As for what the the TOS writers meant at the time – again, do we have any source for that? If so, great! If not, then, well... :/ --From Andoria with Love 06:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC) OK, new supporting evidence just in (thanks to Psion and a few others over at TrekBBS who did the look up for me as I can't find my copy of this book: The names of the ships of the same class as Enterprise are rostered in "The Making of Star Trek", by Stephen Whitfield (I was 99% certain they were, but I wanted to get specific citations before I said anything). Whitfield took his information directly from production materials he had access to. I quote Psion's post, complete with page cites: The August 8, 1967 memo from D.C. Fontana to Gene Roddenberry entitled "STAR FLEET -- 12 STARSHIPS" is reproduced on page 163 of the thirteenth printing. It lists the following vessels: :Enterprise :Exeter :Essex :Excalibur :Lexington :Yorktown :Endeavor :El Dorado :Excelsior :Saratoga :Constellation ''The memo continues, "Alternates include the names of some famous fighting ships of the past, plus a couple of international variations we migh consider, Star Fleet being composed of a united service. :Hornet :Wasp :Farragut Mentioned as destroyed in "Obsession" :Hood :Bonhomme Richard :Monitor or Merimac, depending upon your loyalties :Tori (bird) :Lafayette :Ari (lion) :Krieger (warrior) Please consider." ''Bob Justman then replies with his list of preferences from Fontana's list: Enterprise, Essex, Excalibur, Lexington, Yorktown, Endeavor, Eagle, Constellation, Hornet, Wasp, Lafayette. ''He mentions other nations that might be worthy of having candidates and even suggests a ship with a name that sounds of Vulcan origin. ''Finally, on page 165, the list of names for starships is established as: Enterprise, Exeter, Excalibur, Lexington, Yorktown, Potemkin, Republic, Hood, Constitution, Kongo, Constellation, Faragut, Valiant, and Intrepid. "The latter four are listed as destroyed in various episodes." ''Note that these ships aren't considered to be of the "Enterprise" class, but, according to the Fontana memo referenced above, part of the "Starship" class. The last line is apparently the result of me mentioning ships of "the Enterprise's class" which he took to mean "Enterprise class" thus his restatement that this roster is for "Starship class" vessels, per Fontana above. We obviously also have to add the ''Defiant to that list, but that's irrelevant to this particular discussion. The linkage is now complete, with Republic and Intrepid as members of the Starship class, later to be known as the Constitution class...Capt Christopher Donovan 07:02, 27 May 2007 (UTC) ::Awesome! I can't believe I didn't think of checking that... Now that we know that it was their intention that ships referred to as Starships were supposed to be of the same class as Enterprise, I don't think there's any reason not to go by that. Nonetheless, I think we should wait it out a day or two to see if anyone objects to it or has any further input on this subject. Nice work! :) --From Andoria with Love 07:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC) No worries, and I agree. Sorry if I came of as being nasty about the whole situation. I thought this was "common knowledge" information, so I honestly didn't expect there to be a big "sturm und drang" about it. Btw, I just remembered a line from "Relics" that ALSO supports the idea of "starship" as an entirely seperate classification of vessel. From the scene between Scotty and Picard on the recreation of the Enterprise-nil's Bridge: SCOTT: You know, I served aboard eleven ships in my career...freighters, cruisers, starships,... but this is the only one I ever think about... the only one I miss. When things settle down and we "fix" the articles in question, I suggest we "carbon copy" this discussion to their talk pages in order to not have this problem crop up again. Once more, apologies if I came across as a jerk.Capt Christopher Donovan 09:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC) :::I'm still not sure if that piece of behind-the-scenes info is valid. I don't see anything that stops the term "starship" from referring to top-of-the-line Starfleet heavy cruisers, such as the Constitution class, the Miranda class (mentioned as a starship in the Star Trek IV script), the yet-to-be-built Excelsior class and undoubtedly other starship classes of the day. :::In the behind-the-scenes memo, they refer to those ships as "Starship class" ships, but I always took that to mean the type of ship that Constitution class ships belong to. Obviously, the definition had changed from the 22nd century when ''Enterprise'' was considered a starship, as it wouldn't be in the late 23rd and 24th centuries, but there's nothing in canon that refers to the Constitution class as equal to all "starships." In fact, it does prove the contrary, even if you limit it to TOS. In "The Return of the Archons," the [[USS Archon|USS Archon]] is specifically referred to as the "starship Archon." Should that be included as a Constitution-class vessel, from 100 years before?--Tim Thomason 20:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC) OK, I'll admit that that reference slipped by me (the ep not being one of my favorites). My response would be that that is ONE reference (which can be easily dismissed as a production error, like the infamous "phaser firing torpedo tube" in TNG). That the term became "genericized" later, even as early as TMP/TWOK and carrying through modern Trek, has no bearing on what the producer intent was in '67-'69. Even if we grant that "starship" is used as a generic designator via the Archon reference (which I do not), the Fontana/Justman memos make it clear that the list they are working on is for the names of "Starship class" vessels, ie Enterprise (whose dedication plaque flat out says "Starship class") and her class-sisters, the "twelve like her in the fleet". Republic and Intrepid are on that final list. Therefore they are Starship-class vessels, later redesignated Constitution-class. The article already supports Starship class=''Constitution'' class anyways. See the first paragraph of the article, and the fact that "Starship class" redirects to the "Constitution class" article.Capt Christopher Donovan 21:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC) :::: I think we might consider broadening the scope of this discussion beyond the "Constitution class" page and frame of mind. As I recall, a similar discussion debating the finer points of what a starship is can be found on talk:starship, that was never resolved. With that said, it might be necessary to explore more dialog than what is stated above that helped describe the factors used in TOS (and beyond) in defining a starship: :::: General Descriptors: ::::: *''"Starship?" / "That supposed to mean it flies through space?" / "That's right."'' ( ) ::::: *''"The Enterprise is a starship, capable of traveling through space."'' ( ) ::::: *''"Are we going to fly in your ship?" / "He said it was a shuttle, not a ship."'' ( ; ok, so not specific to this conversation, but notable in terms of defining distinctions between spacecraft.) :::: Configuration: suggests this as a factor in defining the USS Constellation: ::::: * "I have it on the sensors, Captain. By configuration -- a starship. stopped in space. She appears to be drifting." :::: Power utilization: suggests this as a factor in defining a starship: ::::: * "The thing that confused me was the power utilization curve. It made them seem more powerful than a starship or anything known to us. That ship was constructed for a suicide mission. Since they never intended to return to their home base, they could use 100% power on their attacks." :::: Mission: suggests this as a factor in defining a starship: ::::: * "Starships do not transport cargo." / * "In times of emergency, they do anything, and believe me, botanical plague is an emergency." :::: Authority: had several lines suggesting that "a starship" was simply an authoritative vessel, "failure to answer a starship's signal", perhaps something akin to a military-type vessel, or police vessel. ::::: * "Well, how the devil am I supposed to know this is a starship, Captain? A strange ship comes alongside. Naturally I tried to evade you. Starship captain, you exceeded your authority when you drove me and mine into a shower of asteroids." ::::: * ''"Mr. Mudd, you're charged with galaxy travel without a flight plan, without an identification beam, and failure to answer a starship's signal, thus a menace to navigation." ::::: * ''"You'll need medical help, cargo runs, starship protection." :::: There are various other similar references about 'misusing a starship's authority' in . had a reference in a similar context too, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't in reference to a Constitution class: ::::: * "Leader, there is another Federation ship closing. A starship!" ::::In terms of contradicting evidence, that does not seem to support "starship" being synonymous with "Constitution class", but as well, other classes (in terms of TOS usage of the nomenclature, and in addition to the Archon reference): ::::: *''"Inspection tour of a cadet vessel. Old Class J starship. One of the baffle plates ruptured." ( ; which seems to contradict "Mudd's Woman" dialog, as Mudd's ship was also apparently a "J class") ::::: *"''I must fight to remember that this is an intelligent, highly advanced individual, the Captain of a starship, like myself, undoubtedly a dangerously clever opponent." ( ) :::: While I'm sure there are more, these were what quickly came to mind, and so what can be taken from this is that there is something more unique about the term "starship" versus spacecraft, space cruiser, star cruiser, space ship, there just isn't enough evidence to support what that difference is exactly, nor to peg it on a single class of ship. :::: Also, regarding the references from "The Making of Star Trek", I am familiar with that reference as well, and I'm not sure if that really shouldn't be treated any differently than the Star Trek Encyclopedia as a source, which is why we removed all class references to various unseen ships from the main section of those respective ship's articles. Quickly browsing through that section of the book, the memos never made it clear that this is how it was going to be. They simply come across more as a "wish list" than an "official list". --Alan 22:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC) Alan you are muddying the waters unneccesarily by continuing to bring in post-TOS references as they are 100% IRRELEVANT to the discussion as to producer intent in 67-69. But I'll let that go. We still have a valid production source that states "Starfleet - 12 Starships", seperating out a particular group of ships, including Enterprise (and Republic and Intrepid) in that group. Enterprise is canonically a Starship class vessel (or, if you insist, a Starship class starship) per her dedication plaque (as was the E-A at launch, per HER plaque, but that's beside the point). Every single ship whose name is on that list who also made a visual appearance on screen was the same class ship as Enterprise. Dialoge aside, those two data points are strong evidence that the list represents a single class of ship (which again, was the stated intent of the producers at the time the list was drafted). For our purposes, that's ALL we need do on this point: establish that all those ships were "class sisters". Now we can move on to examine the evidence that "Starship class" became "Constitution class". Well, we can (again), if you insist, but it's been done to death. The real piece of the puzzle we needed was the one above (that the named ships were "Starship class" to begin with). It became obvious early on that "Starship class" sounded silly, and they began to drop hints (like Scotty's monitor screen), then later flat out stated it (even as blatantly as putting "Constitution class" on Defiant 's plaque in IAMD.Capt Christopher Donovan 00:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC) :::: I hardly think exploring all relevant possibilities as "muddying the waters" because I am being thorough. The term "starship" is simply much too general, and based on the various datapoints that I explored from TOS, which I noticed you completely ignored. There is more to it than simply the association with the designation of "starship class". This is especially of interest then you throw the reference into the mix, which was related to what I was discussing with regards to the use of terminology in TOS. Then again, had you read what I wrote, instead of stopping at the first non-TOS reference, you would have realized that. :::: I'd reply to your "valid production source that states 'Starfleet - 12 Starships'" comment, but I would again be repeating myself, except for the fact that relying solely on Whitfield's analysis, one can find two flaws, the Republic was never stated as being destroyed, and if we choose to accept that the Valiant, you should keep in mind that it was never referenced as a "starship", but a "star cruiser." And again, what of the other TOS-era references to "starship" that clearly were not in reference to a Connie? How does those points keep getting conveniently "forgotten"? :::: So instead of repeating myself anymore, there is absolutely no reason not to list a class name to a ship that did not appear on screen in the main content of the article. Canon policy alone supports this. This is why they are already mentioned in the background section of their respective articles, because the information is speculative, even if by the production staff. --Alan 01:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC) :::(edit conflict) All of his references are TOS except for the first section that is admittedly "not specific to this conversation" and a later TNG reference that is similar to the TOS references. Regardless, this is important to help understand what "starship" means in Star Trek which does need to be solved, and where he was moving the discussion towards. We should never "ignore" Post-TOS references. That goes against what the site is about. :::Hypothetically, if the [[USS Yorktown (23rd century)|USS Yorktown]] was later referred to in canon as a Federation class vessel, then that's what we would say it was, even if Justman wrote a memo stating that the Republic "is and ever shall be a Starship (e.g. Constitution) class starship." The memo is excellent background information, but the fact that 4 different classes of vessels are referred to as "starships" in TOS leads me to believe that the memo was used for any Federation ships mentioned, and the ones seen were only "Connies" because they couldn't or wouldn't afford to make a Constitution-like model. If Pike's "Class J starship" was named, I wouldn't be surprised if they called it the El Dorado. :::Since TOS seems to use 4 or 5 different definitions for Starfleet as Alan pointed out above, I'd say that any time the term "starship" is used, we shouldn't automatically assume it's to a Constitution-class vessel, even if it's named after one of the "planned" ones. Plus there's the whole matter that we've tried to limit the amount of Constitutions as much as possible.--Tim Thomason 01:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC) "Starship Class" I think it's important for people to realize that the "Starship Class" as it appears on Kirk's original dedication plaque does NOT refer to the actual "model" of starship that Kirk commanded. In TOS there were several "types" of Federation ships, classified under Spaceship or Starship (and non-canonically, Dreadnaught). The SS Beagle commanded by Captain Merrick was classified as a Spaceship, whereas Kirk's ship is classified as a Starship, for example of a canon usage. That's the "class" the plaque is referring to; the classification of the ship, not the actual "model" name. It's easy to go in armed with the high-and-mighty TNG knowledge, assume that TOS simply made mistakes because it wasn't "fully developed" or what-not, and assume that such "mistakes" need to be fixed in order to conform to a different style...but it's not a mistake, it was an intentional decision on the part of the production crew. --Alex Munro 06:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC) :This has really been talked into the ground in the discussion right above this one. --OuroborosCobra talk 07:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC) ::The interesting discussion above covers a lot of ground, but I still don't see any canon evidence which justifies the conjecture in the main article that the refit from large dish/large bridge module version to smaller dish/smaller bridge version was reflected in a change of class name from Starship to Constitution. This seems to be purely conjectural and should be removed.--Skon 19:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)